<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On Aug 2, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Glyph Lefkowitz wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 11:30 PM, Steve Steiner (listsin) <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:listsin@integrateddevcorp.com">listsin@integrateddevcorp.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 0pt; margin-right: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: auto; ">
<div style=""><div><div class="im"><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); margin-top: 0pt; margin-right: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: auto; ">Where would we put an "inventory" project for it to be most useful?<br>
<div><div></div><div></div></div></blockquote><div><br> As JP mentioned earlier in this thread, some work has already taken place here: <<a href="http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/DocumentationAnalysis" target="_blank">http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/DocumentationAnalysis</a>>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div>It doesn't really look like that effort went anywhere.</div><div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>I don't think it's quite fair to say it didn't go <i>anywhere</i>, it just didn't get anywhere particularly complete. I think the reviews that have been done thus far are still a valuable resource for someone interested in working on the documentation.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Ok, fine, it went "over there." Now...if you're just starting out, how much does "over there" help and how much has "over there" ever been integrated into anything else? How would you even find "over there?"</div><div><br></div><div>I guess I'm still frustrated with the lack of an overarching doc organization scheme. </div><div><br></div><div>I've tried to use various parts of the Twisted eco-system, on a number of projects, and have repeatedly gotten stuck on outdated, disjointed, disorganized, and just plain wrong documentation.</div><div><br></div><div>As I've said before, the complete lack of date/version stamping on example code has been the greatest source of frustration. </div><div><br></div><div>I've, more than once, gotten half-way through a tutorial and realize that it just plain didn't work with the current version. </div><div><br></div><div>End of exploration. </div><div><br></div><div>I used the best result I found in my search and it just didn't work. Gotta move on; client's getting annoyed. Unbillable time; bad.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>What we really need is for people in the community to knuckle down and do the work of actually reviewing the documents, rewriting things, soliciting feedback, copy-editing the documents, checking for accuracy, etc. As Jessica did when she started the thread :).<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hasn't happened, and isn't going to happen, in my opinion, until there's some actual incentive for "people in the community", which is a small subset of the "potential community", to actually do anything about it. Documentation is not needed by the "community" as much as it's needed by the "potential community."</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>Frankly, the work is boring: what the documentation needs is not a dynamic market-driven system for managing contributions and paying bounties, it's not a comprehensive overhaul of our entire documentation toolchain. What it needs is for people to sit down and read all the documentation, make a list of all of its problems, one at a time, and then write, delete, and edit as necessary, incorporating feedback from the community.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Frankly, the work is boring and it ain't happening, never has, and never will unless something changes. Bounty system, torture, Target coupons, whatever...</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>Once we have people taking part in that effort and working with the docs on a daily or weekly basis, <i>then</i> we can listen to the reality of the problems and frustrations that they have working with the tools or determining priorities or whatever and solve those problems.</div></div></blockquote><br></div><div>See above. How many years does the same thing have to happen for there to be a realization that, without a fundamental change, nothing is going to happen?</div><div><br></div><div>If you paid someone, 20 hours a week, to babysit the documentation effort, they would. Depending on their competence, there would be progress.</div><div><br></div><div>If you wait, endlessly for "Once we have people taking part in that effort and working with the docs on a daily or weekly basis", you're going to get the same result.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>Separately from that, if you're interested in contributing some time to manage a bounty program for the TSF, that might be a reasonable idea. Other projects have experimented with bounty-based systems for
resolving bugs. Unfortunately there are a number of difficulties with
those systems, which are really out of the scope of this discussion, but they're worth talking about if you have a real interest in doing it.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm not sure what I'm interested in, at this point, but I certainly am not interested in doing it for free and neither is anyone else.</div><div><br></div><div>In my opinion, and by existing evidence, coherent documentation ain't happening, and won't, unless something fundamental changes.</div><div><br></div><div>It's not my project and it's not for me to decide but it seems to me that waiting for "people to take part in that effort" is doomed to waiting forever...</div><div><br></div><div>S</div><div><br></div></div></body></html>