<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Jan 23, 2008 4:36 PM, <<a href="mailto:glyph@divmod.com">glyph@divmod.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class="Ih2E3d">On 12:10 am, <a href="mailto:clemesha@gmail.com">clemesha@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>>Thanks Steve Holden for organizing this, it's a great idea.<br><br></div>Indeed!<br><div class="Ih2E3d">>Some nice topics might include:
<br><br></div>Thanks for the suggestions. Do you have any others? :-) </blockquote><div><br>For my usage of twisted, these are important to me and I am<br>the most familiar with them. (See below)<br><br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I hate to<br>rain on your parade here, but I think maybe my explanation of why I<br>don't like these suggestions will spark discussion of more different<br>ones...<br><div class="Ih2E3d">>a) Start off simple with a "
twisted.web2" example (everyone "gets"<br>>http)<br><br></div>I think that this is actually something we should avoid in a tutorial.<br>The web situation in Twisted is complicated<br>(<a href="http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/WebDevelopmentWithTwisted" target="_blank">
http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/WebDevelopmentWithTwisted</a>). web2 in<br>particular is suffering from an extreme lack of maintenance and still<br>has never "officially" been released; work is just starting to get
<br>underway to unify t.web2 and nevow into t.web and reduce the confusion,<br>but this is all still in progress and who knows when, how, or even if it<br>will be completed. </blockquote><div> </div><div>Oh yes, I know, I know. While learning twisted I read *most* (that's alot ;)
<br>of posts to the twisted-web mailing list. So I am very familiar with the state.<br><br>That said, oh how I wish you guys could make twisted.web2 the one and only!!! <br>It would be good for beginners and others alike.
<br><br>Note however: I can only barely imagine how hard that might be,<br>so I am *definitely not* complaining ... Twisted is excellent, thanks very much for it.<br><br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
If you get a group of experienced Twisted folks<br>together to talk about writing web applications, you're more likely to<br>spark a debate than an educational session.<br><br>Even if all these problems were fixed, and there were a really good,
<br>well-supported, universally understood web server for Twisted, the<br>benefits of Twisted's programming model are not immediately obvious to<br>the bread and butter of the web programming world. Learning how to use
<br>some combination of Twisted tools to generate a web page will always be<br>at least a little bit harder than writing the sort of glorified CGI<br>script that most web frameworks require these days - unless you're using
<br>something like Athena, which might be too much complexity to address in<br>a single tutorial session. (And while Athena is more polished and "one<br>right way" than the lower-level HTTP stuff, there is still a painful
<br>dearth of documentation, not to mention the fact that you need to write<br>JavaScript as well as Python.)</blockquote><div><br>"Comet" (aka what Athena does) is one of my main uses of twisted, see<br><br><a href="http://svn.xantus.org/shortbus/trunk/cometd-twisted/">
http://svn.xantus.org/shortbus/trunk/cometd-twisted/</a><br><br>is some code that I use. <br><br>That and other ajax-y stuff. Not much templating html, etc.<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><br>Twisted really shines best when you're writing a client as well as a<br>server. Chat is the quintessential application where Twisted makes the<br>most sense - and the lack of a well-documented chat server is much less
<br>of a problem than the lack of a well-documented web server, since you<br>can easily define a wire protocol and wacky semantics for your purpose-<br>built tutorial chat application.</blockquote><div>Yes!<br> <br></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br><div class="Ih2E3d">>b) then plug that into a simple sqlite database using<br>>"
twisted.enterprise"<br><br></div>twisted.enterprise is similarly a scary and inconsistent area, and<br>requires understanding the interaction of the DB thread and the reactor<br>thread. (And at least part of this section would have to be dedicated
<br>to "and never, ever touch anything in this package aside from adbapi".)</blockquote><div><br>I only ever use 'adbapi'. The reason I say this is database functionality<br>is pretty darn important for all non-trivial programs, so programmers need/want
<br>to know about this functionality, wouldn't you agree?<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br><div class="Ih2E3d">
>d) Show how using "twistd" is really convient<br>>(i.e. "twistd -ny server.tac" and "twistd -y server.tac", with some<br>>logging<br>>capability, etc)<br><br></div>This, however, is a great suggestion. Twisted plugins should be part of
<br>this discussion. <br></blockquote><div>Yes.<br><br><br>Thanks again for Twisted!<br><br>-Alex<br> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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