[Twisted-Python] Python3 twistd daemon for Ubuntu 14.04 alternatives

[Glyph Lefkowitz]

> On Feb 27, 2017, at 4:05 PM, Clayton Daley <clayton.daley at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 1:08 AM, Hynek Schlawack <hs at ox.cx <mailto:hs at ox.cx>> wrote:
> 
>> Are you talking about building Docker containers on the fly? 
> 
> I’m a bit baffled what gave you that idea after I’ve spent days arguing for strict build/runtime separation?
> 
> I was just trying to figure out where you were having this problem:
> 
> > ZFS and apt-get + lots of files in a deb = omgiwannamurdersomeone
> 
> I heard the opposite of what you meant by this comment -- that you were deploying apt-gets + debs using docker and the combination had you wanting to murder someone. A really sharp dev wrote our software, but did a poor job sequencing Dockerfiles... and I had that exact same reaction.  My question had nothing to do with build-runtime separation... just docker optimization. On a dev (not ops) list, it didn't seem like a crazy question.

The question as such is not crazy at all, but rather, Hynek has been, both in general and repeatedly in this specific thread, a strong proponent of strict build & run container separation.  What made the question confusing was that to ask it of him, in this way, implied that you weren't following his earlier suggestions, and it's not clear what you were reading into them if not "don't build containers on the fly".

> Obviously Glyph couldn't answer this question so his interjection came off as condescendingly unhelpful.

It was not my intention to condescend, and I'm sorry that I did; my intention was to express a similar sort of bafflement that Hynek did.  My intention was for it to be read more like "you must have read the same commitment to build and runtime separation that I did in Hynek's posts, so I'm not sure what you're referring to".

(Plus, this response was a quip in a longer reply mainly about Pex.)

> Perhaps it's not an impression he deserves, but he got off to a horrible start when he responded to my first ever Twisted question (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22896993/persisting-data-in-a-twisted-app <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22896993/persisting-data-in-a-twisted-app>) without bothering to add anything (sound familiar?).

The right thing to have done (with respect to the site's guidelines) would have been to vote to close (as "too broad" or perhaps "primarily opinion based") rather than to make that comment.  However, I find that closing users' questions, especially relatively those asked by users without much experience on the site (i.e.: sub-1k reputation), is often interpreted as a hostile dismissal, so I ask for an SSCCE which can guide the asker to a more narrowly-constrained question that hews more closely to the guidelines set forth on the site.  It really saddens me that a comment is taken as equally condescending; short of writing multiple paragraphs of apologetic preface for every piece of feedback, it's not clear what a regular answerer on the site ought to do.

The fact that nobody else bothered to answer this question, comment on it, or even upvote it (one of the 2 upvotes was mine; I tend to upvote questions which are otherwise well-asked but need editing for specificity) in the intervening two years suggests that my "not appropriate for SO" assessment was accurate.  What I was trying to tell you was "you aren't going to get any answers with a question phrased like this".

One of the reasons I'm responding to this throwaway comment in such detail is that this category of misunderstanding - that attempting to be helpful in a volunteer endeavor like answering strangers' questions can be interpreted as arrogance, dismissal, or hostility (and the grudge nursed for years after the fact!), is a significant emotional cost for anyone involved in any form of volunteer support for open source.  I'm in the middle of taking a year off from answering questions on SO for this exact reason.

So, if you're reading this message, and you're ever mad at someone rejecting your question (or your PR or your bug report or whatever), please take a moment to consider the transaction from their perspective.  They're commenting in an attempt to be helpful, and they've probably just answered 5 (or 10 or 50 or 100) similar questions, and so they may not be including the full context of their feedback.

Ironically, the question you asked on SO would have been great mailing list fodder, it just doesn't fit the format stipulated by Stack Overflow's guidelines.  The intersection of persistence and Twisted _is_ a subtle and non-obvious issue, one that I've personally been trying to help address recently (for example) by taking over maintenance of http://alchimia.readthedocs.io <http://alchimia.readthedocs.io/>.

> I rarely interject because I'm no developer... just an entrepreneurial jack-of-all-trades (masters in business, bachelors in business, minor in CS -- albeit from Carnegie Mellon) that sometimes contributes to our partly-Twisted product.  However, you've succeeded in making my unusual perspective feel most unwelcome... so you'll be glad to know that you're never going to have to suffer me again.

I'm very sorry to hear that's your impression of me, and sorrier still that it seems to extend to the community in general.  Certainly, making people feel welcome is an explicit part of our mission here.

Your perspective has been valuable over your substantial history with Twisted and I do hope you'll reconsider.

-glyph

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