[Twisted-Python] Enterprise, do you copy?

Glyph Lefkowitz glyph at twistedmatrix.com
Thu Nov 1 12:33:35 EST 2001

On Thursday, November 1, 2001, at 12:15  AM, Kevin Turner wrote:

> ...hello?  Hello?  Is anyone receiving this transmission?

[snip complaint about poorly-connected multiple language environment]

> Ye gods, man.  Can anyone save this tragedy?

[snip description of big piles of data]

[snip description of mouse-blood-thirsty research scientists]

> So, I gotta ask.  What's the status of twisted.enterprise these days?
> With Oracle?  Webwidgets would help with the web bit, but they'd still
> need to write javascript to keep the forms from being completely dumb?
> Or can you convince them that there's another interface that's portable
> and *drop-dead-easy* to maintain on the client machines, which he can
> use as an alternative to web?  Is there an IDE which can make up for all
> the shiny things which the Oracle tools have?

I hate to say this, but Twisted is not really in this 'market space' 
yet. This is a "traditional" (insofar as any tradition has yet 
developed) web application, and Twisted probably can't help too much.  
We aim to be there one day, but let me give you a brief description of 
why we're not yet...

Twisted is currently a framework for Python.  Not an IDE, not a 
web-platform development environment.  Web accessibility features are an 
equal partner of several different modes of accessibility.  "Enterprise" 
(relational storage) is still in the prototyping phase, and there are no 
applications yet that use it.

This means it isn't good for quick'n'dirty web apps unless you already 
know it; it certainly isn't good for quick'n'dirty web apps that you 
expect to scale.  [yet]  If you want to have any degree of integrated 
services (an AIM robot which can be configured through a web page or an 
IRC server, for example), then Twisted will be an advantage.  Also, if 
you're developing customized client software, PB can be a huge help in 
getting past the initial milestone of getting your client and server 

All of these tasks involve a degree of hacking proficiency above and 
beyond that required to go through a JDeveloper wizard and click on 
"-YES-! ENTERPRISE! WEB! WOOD GLUE!".  I don't intend to slur the 
intended audience here; I'm saying we would be misrepresenting Twisted 
to say it's *easy* to add new functionality like that.

Of course, the Oracle corporation is lying as well; but that's what they 
do for a living; I'm just an amateur marketer. ;-)

[snip screaming and gnashing of teeth about perl]

> I don't think it's too late.  They're still making up their minds.  But
> if there's another option, they've got to know soon, before they're
> wholly consumed by the dark side.  And whatever it is, it's got to do a
> damn _impressive_ job of selling itself, to overcome both that warm
> fuzzy feeling imparted by the "Larry Ellison" brand, and the deap
> zealotry of the Perl encampment.


I think that your best bet in this particular situation is to befriend 
the Perl camp.  Show them some of the things you can do with Twisted, 
get them interested in Python.  If they want to go with raw perl, they 
probably understand that having a few  expert people generating code can 
be a lot better than a lot of inexpert people using tools they don't 
quite understand.  They won't be surprised when they hit a rough edge, 
and won't be shy about contributing changes back to the community.  It's 
likely that you won't be able to convince them, but at least you'll be 
speaking the same language.

Those who are pushing for JDeveloper are beyond hope; we don't have a 
big name behind Twisted (unless your father's employer knows the true 
and description-defyingly sinister meaning of "Twisted Matrix 
Laboratories", which I find unlikely).  We don't have big piles of money 
to wow them with flashy demos, and we  don't have any existing 
"customers" who use the "product" in the way that they expect to.  In 
many ways, the product they are shopping for doesn't do nearly the same 
thing as Twisted does; they want buttons to click on, not library 
functionality to use.

i-used-to-be-a-java-developer-too,-make-of-that-what-you-will-ly y'rs,

______      you are in a maze of twisted little applications, all
|   |_\     remarkably consistent.
|     |          -- glyph lefkowitz, glyph @ twisted matrix . com
|_____|             http://www.twistedmatrix.com/

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